For Bruce: This is my post in rough form, feel free to correct any mistakes before I post it in the supplier review section
obviously the general theme is that the GG has no US warranty and will not have one until one is created as per regulations that pertain to such things and the US suppliers stop using the language that negates the warranty when they sell the product. Until such time Imeo and the GG line is practicing a form of deception that creates an unfair advantage over other suppliers on ECF and on the market in general. Please forgive the html as it is formated for an ECF post.
Hello,
I own a GG, I received it from Vaporkings...
I was not exactly happy with the product, I posted a review, I got some flack. Oh well such is the life of a review poster. The only reason I am telling this is because it is good to have some background information on what got me started looking into this, and what I have found out since I started looking into it.
One of the primary comments from GG supporters, and the GG manufacturer on his ECF subforum, was how no other Mod had a warranty like the GG, or that they were extremely rare, I agree lifetime warranties are rare in the Mod business, but why do so many people think the GG has one? This question kept bothering me as I kept looking around for this "warranty"...everywhere...it was not to be found, in fact the US supplier Vapor Kings and now the current US supplier both listed the product as sold "as is", remember that phrase I will get back to it.
The idea of the US GG having a warranty is a false one, a demonstrable legal false hood, one that is perpetuated by the creator Imeo, and the US suppliers, one that is an out and out lie or one serious error in language.
That is a big claim, I hope you will excuse the length of this post because I believe such a claim needs to be clearly and absolutely supported
What is a warranty?
Forgive the obvious question here but before we determine if something has a quality or not we have to at least know the features of that quality. A warranty is a very clearly defined legal term, it is an assurance from one party to another about claims made by the original party and its product.
There are several types of warranties, most basically they break down into full (very rare) limited (the most often seen in ecigs) and implied.
The full warranty covers everything. It covers shipping expenses, upkeep, replacement parts...basically what you would expect from something called full. Under US federal law a full warranty can not charge for shipping...obviously that is not what the GG's supposed warranty is because they say you have to pay 10 Euros...so lets move on
The Limited warranty covers only items listed in the warranty, your car may have a limited power train warranty that will not cover cosmetic problems on your dash board for instance, this is what you find on almost every mod, in fact I think this is the default industry standard. For there to be a limited warranty there actually has to be a written warranty somewhere in the US or viewable by US customers. If product x has a limited warranty you can easily see it in most cases by going to the website and finding it there. There is no such warranty on the GG anywhere I could find, the only thing close to such a document is found on the fan created website The Golden Greek Ecig | Home of the GG Ecig which states.
[QUOTE]
Every GG product (except those clearly labeled otherwise) has a life time warranty.
This warranty applies to all GG products both brand new and second/third hand.
This warranty covers all situations (user’s fault, manufacturing fault etc) and it starts from the first day that user receives the unit.[/QUOTE]This sounds like a full warranty but obviously it isn't because it goes on to state
[QUOTE]
The only thing required from the user is to send 10 euros per faulty part to the manufacturer to cover the shipping cost and the manufacturer will ship a new part to the user.
In case of problem with a new unit, first contact the supplier you’ve bought the unit from. Otherwise contact Imeo for details.[/QUOTE]and under Magnuson-Mosberg this is not a full warranty,
but is it a limited or implied warranty?
Uniform Commercial Code Article 2 states that such warranties are
(2) Express warranties by the seller to the immediate buyer are created as follows:
(a) Any affirmation of fact or promise made by the seller which relates to the goods and becomes part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the goods shall conform to the affirmation or promise.
(b) Any description of the goods which is made part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the goods shall conform to the description.
(c) Any sample or model that is made part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the whole of the goods shall conform to the sample or model.
So one could think, especially upon dealing with Imeo in the context of the e-cigarette-forum, or seeing his posts that his statements may in fact be counted as a warranty.
The Catch
So Imeo is on here saying there is a Warranty, a lifetime warranty on his goods, so obviously that means there is one correct? Well...no, the reason there is no Warranty under US law on any GG sold in the United States is because Imeo does not actually sell the GG. He gives that responsibility to a US supplier, at one times Vapor Kings and now Clouds of Vapor.
Doesn't that mean that the warranty travels though? Putting aside the problem of the fact that there is no written warranty anywhere to see, and the problems of warranties traveling from international markets to domestic markets the answer is still no. Because all US suppliers preemptively remove the warranty using language as described under the Uniform Commercial Code article 2, the exact language being "as is". By stating this clearly they remove entirely any implication of a warranty in most States to quote the UCC article 2
[QUOTE]
unless the circumstances indicate otherwise, all implied warranties are excluded by expressions like "as is", "with all faults" or other language that in common understanding calls the buyer's attention to the exclusion of warranties, makes plain that there is no implied warranty, and, in a consumer contract evidenced by a record, is set forth conspicuously in the record;
[/QUOTE] In addition Imeo controls the supply line of the GG product in the United States, the suppliers do not offer their product outside of the "market area" as defined by Imeo and his suppliers. There are plenty of examples here on ECF were they have been censured for doing so.
By listing the product "as is" and clearly stating there is no warranty, under US law they void any implied warranty. Some states don't let them get away with this, but the majority do and even those that don't have limits.
Whatever "warranty" the GG line has is void by the act of transferring it to a separate seller (in this case the US supplier Vapor Kings and now Clouds of Vapor) and then having that seller complete the transfer of the product in a way that voids all responsibility of both the manufacturer and the seller for the product( in this case by stating the product is sold "as is" with no returns). Whatever services are offered by Imeo to his customer they are not warranties. It is more in line with an "insurance plan" than a warranty but I will leave it up to him to name his service.
The Consequences.
So what? One might say if Imeo still replaces parts what is the harm?
The harm comes in two forms, harm to his competitors and harm to his customers.
I will talk about the competitors first,
When someone, in this case a registered supplier, makes a claim that they have "the best warranty in the business" and are allowed to post it on ECF, a customer casually looking around for a new device may in fact see this and buy the product. However if that supplier has gone to none of the troubles of actually writing a warranty, or has removed himself from all legal responsibilities a warranty would entail then he is giving himself an unfair and unethical advantage over those makers of devices who claim to have a warranty and who actually have one written out and are held to the warranty in times of conflict between costumer and supplier. Because in the end that is the purpose of a warranty.
They are legally bound to do certain things in regard to the device they are selling while Imeo is not. He is free to subjectively change the boundaries of his warranty at any time, and he has done so...going from a "full warranty" to a warranty that does not cover small consumable parts just today in his subforum.
The example from his subforum was this quote from Imeo
[QUOTE]If you use cheap things that cause damages them I cant take care of those damages you do.[/QUOTE] but how does this at all reflect the statement at The Golden Greek Ecig | Home of the GG Ecig "This warranty covers all situations (user’s fault, manufacturing fault etc) and it starts from the first day that user receives the unit."
Obviously it doesn't but that is Ok because Imeo is not bound in any way to a fan made GG site, unfortunately this and a Wikipedia fan made page are the only traces any kind of warranty at all. Therefore by not actually having a warranty Golden Greek becomes completely exempt from any responsibility.
The other harm comes to the customer,
Obviously the Idea of a GG warranty is common among GG users on ECF, it is actually mentioned on the GG subforum, what is not mentioned by either Imeo or his US supplier is the fact that no such warranty transfers to GG's sold in the United States. However if a customer was to use ECF as a primary tool for searching and comparing devices it is entirely possible he could be misled by the statements made by Imeo and the lack of clarity on this issue.
The Solution
Obviously whatever the GG has in Greece or any other market, in the United States market it has no warranty at all. Either a warranty, full or limited, should be created for the product and the US reseller should remove its warranty voiding language OR this forum should stop being used to transmit the idea that the GG in any way operates under a warranty under U.S. laws, or that it is in any way competitive with other companies that do in fact have warranties.
This is my review of the supplier Golden Greek, and its strange business practices
I am known on ECF(e-cigarete-forum.com) under the user name GoldenKobold
Thanks for reading.
obviously the general theme is that the GG has no US warranty and will not have one until one is created as per regulations that pertain to such things and the US suppliers stop using the language that negates the warranty when they sell the product. Until such time Imeo and the GG line is practicing a form of deception that creates an unfair advantage over other suppliers on ECF and on the market in general. Please forgive the html as it is formated for an ECF post.
Hello,
I own a GG, I received it from Vaporkings...
I was not exactly happy with the product, I posted a review, I got some flack. Oh well such is the life of a review poster. The only reason I am telling this is because it is good to have some background information on what got me started looking into this, and what I have found out since I started looking into it.
One of the primary comments from GG supporters, and the GG manufacturer on his ECF subforum, was how no other Mod had a warranty like the GG, or that they were extremely rare, I agree lifetime warranties are rare in the Mod business, but why do so many people think the GG has one? This question kept bothering me as I kept looking around for this "warranty"...everywhere...it was not to be found, in fact the US supplier Vapor Kings and now the current US supplier both listed the product as sold "as is", remember that phrase I will get back to it.
The idea of the US GG having a warranty is a false one, a demonstrable legal false hood, one that is perpetuated by the creator Imeo, and the US suppliers, one that is an out and out lie or one serious error in language.
That is a big claim, I hope you will excuse the length of this post because I believe such a claim needs to be clearly and absolutely supported
What is a warranty?
Forgive the obvious question here but before we determine if something has a quality or not we have to at least know the features of that quality. A warranty is a very clearly defined legal term, it is an assurance from one party to another about claims made by the original party and its product.
There are several types of warranties, most basically they break down into full (very rare) limited (the most often seen in ecigs) and implied.
The full warranty covers everything. It covers shipping expenses, upkeep, replacement parts...basically what you would expect from something called full. Under US federal law a full warranty can not charge for shipping...obviously that is not what the GG's supposed warranty is because they say you have to pay 10 Euros...so lets move on
The Limited warranty covers only items listed in the warranty, your car may have a limited power train warranty that will not cover cosmetic problems on your dash board for instance, this is what you find on almost every mod, in fact I think this is the default industry standard. For there to be a limited warranty there actually has to be a written warranty somewhere in the US or viewable by US customers. If product x has a limited warranty you can easily see it in most cases by going to the website and finding it there. There is no such warranty on the GG anywhere I could find, the only thing close to such a document is found on the fan created website The Golden Greek Ecig | Home of the GG Ecig which states.
[QUOTE]
Every GG product (except those clearly labeled otherwise) has a life time warranty.
This warranty applies to all GG products both brand new and second/third hand.
This warranty covers all situations (user’s fault, manufacturing fault etc) and it starts from the first day that user receives the unit.[/QUOTE]This sounds like a full warranty but obviously it isn't because it goes on to state
[QUOTE]
The only thing required from the user is to send 10 euros per faulty part to the manufacturer to cover the shipping cost and the manufacturer will ship a new part to the user.
In case of problem with a new unit, first contact the supplier you’ve bought the unit from. Otherwise contact Imeo for details.[/QUOTE]and under Magnuson-Mosberg this is not a full warranty,
but is it a limited or implied warranty?
Uniform Commercial Code Article 2 states that such warranties are
(2) Express warranties by the seller to the immediate buyer are created as follows:
(a) Any affirmation of fact or promise made by the seller which relates to the goods and becomes part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the goods shall conform to the affirmation or promise.
(b) Any description of the goods which is made part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the goods shall conform to the description.
(c) Any sample or model that is made part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the whole of the goods shall conform to the sample or model.
So one could think, especially upon dealing with Imeo in the context of the e-cigarette-forum, or seeing his posts that his statements may in fact be counted as a warranty.
The Catch
So Imeo is on here saying there is a Warranty, a lifetime warranty on his goods, so obviously that means there is one correct? Well...no, the reason there is no Warranty under US law on any GG sold in the United States is because Imeo does not actually sell the GG. He gives that responsibility to a US supplier, at one times Vapor Kings and now Clouds of Vapor.
Doesn't that mean that the warranty travels though? Putting aside the problem of the fact that there is no written warranty anywhere to see, and the problems of warranties traveling from international markets to domestic markets the answer is still no. Because all US suppliers preemptively remove the warranty using language as described under the Uniform Commercial Code article 2, the exact language being "as is". By stating this clearly they remove entirely any implication of a warranty in most States to quote the UCC article 2
[QUOTE]
unless the circumstances indicate otherwise, all implied warranties are excluded by expressions like "as is", "with all faults" or other language that in common understanding calls the buyer's attention to the exclusion of warranties, makes plain that there is no implied warranty, and, in a consumer contract evidenced by a record, is set forth conspicuously in the record;
[/QUOTE] In addition Imeo controls the supply line of the GG product in the United States, the suppliers do not offer their product outside of the "market area" as defined by Imeo and his suppliers. There are plenty of examples here on ECF were they have been censured for doing so.
By listing the product "as is" and clearly stating there is no warranty, under US law they void any implied warranty. Some states don't let them get away with this, but the majority do and even those that don't have limits.
Whatever "warranty" the GG line has is void by the act of transferring it to a separate seller (in this case the US supplier Vapor Kings and now Clouds of Vapor) and then having that seller complete the transfer of the product in a way that voids all responsibility of both the manufacturer and the seller for the product( in this case by stating the product is sold "as is" with no returns). Whatever services are offered by Imeo to his customer they are not warranties. It is more in line with an "insurance plan" than a warranty but I will leave it up to him to name his service.
The Consequences.
So what? One might say if Imeo still replaces parts what is the harm?
The harm comes in two forms, harm to his competitors and harm to his customers.
I will talk about the competitors first,
When someone, in this case a registered supplier, makes a claim that they have "the best warranty in the business" and are allowed to post it on ECF, a customer casually looking around for a new device may in fact see this and buy the product. However if that supplier has gone to none of the troubles of actually writing a warranty, or has removed himself from all legal responsibilities a warranty would entail then he is giving himself an unfair and unethical advantage over those makers of devices who claim to have a warranty and who actually have one written out and are held to the warranty in times of conflict between costumer and supplier. Because in the end that is the purpose of a warranty.
They are legally bound to do certain things in regard to the device they are selling while Imeo is not. He is free to subjectively change the boundaries of his warranty at any time, and he has done so...going from a "full warranty" to a warranty that does not cover small consumable parts just today in his subforum.
The example from his subforum was this quote from Imeo
[QUOTE]If you use cheap things that cause damages them I cant take care of those damages you do.[/QUOTE] but how does this at all reflect the statement at The Golden Greek Ecig | Home of the GG Ecig "This warranty covers all situations (user’s fault, manufacturing fault etc) and it starts from the first day that user receives the unit."
Obviously it doesn't but that is Ok because Imeo is not bound in any way to a fan made GG site, unfortunately this and a Wikipedia fan made page are the only traces any kind of warranty at all. Therefore by not actually having a warranty Golden Greek becomes completely exempt from any responsibility.
The other harm comes to the customer,
Obviously the Idea of a GG warranty is common among GG users on ECF, it is actually mentioned on the GG subforum, what is not mentioned by either Imeo or his US supplier is the fact that no such warranty transfers to GG's sold in the United States. However if a customer was to use ECF as a primary tool for searching and comparing devices it is entirely possible he could be misled by the statements made by Imeo and the lack of clarity on this issue.
The Solution
Obviously whatever the GG has in Greece or any other market, in the United States market it has no warranty at all. Either a warranty, full or limited, should be created for the product and the US reseller should remove its warranty voiding language OR this forum should stop being used to transmit the idea that the GG in any way operates under a warranty under U.S. laws, or that it is in any way competitive with other companies that do in fact have warranties.
This is my review of the supplier Golden Greek, and its strange business practices
I am known on ECF(e-cigarete-forum.com) under the user name GoldenKobold
Thanks for reading.
